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History Topics - Ancient Navigators

 

 

From: Alpheta   
10/26/2003 10:02 pm 
To: ALL (1 of 28) 
 
108.1 

Perhaps I put prior posts about Gavin Menzies' book under a different topic; anyway, I figure this topic deserves a category of its own, and I start it with this follow-up article on Menzies' book:

http://www.thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2003/10/26/features/6537276&sec=features

The Chinese in US before Columbus?

Review by CHEAH BOON KHENG
1421 The Year China Discovered the World
By Gavin Menzies
Publisher: Bantam Press, 520 pages

In this 520-page best-seller, 1421: The Year China Discovered the World, Gavin Menzies, a British ex-submarine commander turned-historian, attempts to rewrite some 500 years of accepted world history. He puts forward a new theory that 15th century Chinese Admiral Zheng He’s fleet of 100 gigantic ships beat Christopher Columbus to America by 72 years and circumnavigated the globe a century before Ferdinand Magellan. This is what is known to historians as alternative history.

Menzies claims further that Zheng He’s ships explored the coasts of west Africa, South America and North America, Australia and Antartica. They even sailed into the Caribbean and went up as far as California. On the east coast of North America the ships sailed up to Rhode Island and even to Greenland, sometimes planting Chinese colonies along the way.
The theory is backed up with four types of evidence:

1) several Chinese star charts and maps and those used by European explorers (including Columbus) when they started their voyages decades later;

2) ancient Chinese artefacts, such as lighthouses and lacquerware, and flora and fauna (maize, Chinese roses, coconuts and sweet potatoes) that were allegedly transported by the Chinese to and from North and South America and some Atlantic islands;

3) remains of wrecks of gigantic Chinese ships allegedly found in Australia and the Caribbean and ancient Chinese anchors in California; and

4) cultural, social and even possible “DNA” links between Chinese and American Indians in California, Rhode Island and other communities in South America, and the aborigines in Australia.

Based on 14 years of investigations, Menzies’ theory has caused a stir among historians, many of whom, however, are not convinced by him. A few individuals have described him as a fantasist and the writer of a historical novel. There is even a web-site debunking his theory. Skepticism has been raised over his research methods and lack of sufficient supporting evidence. Even in Beijing a few Chinese historians demurred.

His book appeared in January this year, but in March last year, when he first announced his theory in a public lecture to the Royal Geographical Society in London, he was given a polite hearing. The talk was broadcast over the world by the BBC and he secured publication and syndication contracts which reportedly reaped in US$750,000 (RM2.8mil).
In the early 15th century, China was, indeed, the world’s greatest naval power. The Ming dynasty’s Admiral Zheng He, a eunuch who was commissioned by the Emperor Zhu Di, did command a fleet of 100 huge ships through the Indian Ocean, and on one of his trips sailed as far as the Red Sea and the east coast of Africa. He led seven such overseas expeditions. This much is well documented.

Zheng He’s ships were huge nine-masted galleons, 330 feet long and 132 feet wide and dwarfed the ships which Columbus later commanded five times over. The length of Columbus’ ship, the Santa Maria, was only 60 feet long.
Even Time magazine has commemorated his world famous achievements in a special issue (Aug 20-27, 2001). Across the spread of two pages, it published a picture of his junk described as a “technological masterpiece” and on half a page, a rare colour picture of a stone tablet, 12cm thick, which his crew erected on his third trip to the island of Sri Lanka. A Muslim, Zheng He had the tablet inscribed in Chinese, Tamil and Persian praising Buddha, Shiva and Allah in equal measure. It is now on display at the National Museum in Colombo.

There are presently attempts to organise conferences and celebrations to mark the 600th anniversary of Zheng He’s first overseas expedition next year. Unfortunately, there are gaps in the records of Zheng He’s voyages. On the death of Emperor Zhu Di, the xenophobic Confucian officials who advised the later Ming emperors opposed these expensive overseas expeditions and succeeded in terminating them. Many of the diaries of these voyages have not survived and are believed to have been destroyed. However, at the temple of the Celestial Spouse (a Taoist goddess) in Chiang-tsu, Fujian province in China, a carved stone inscription erected by Zheng He in 1431 has survived and commemorates his achievements:

“We, Zheng He and his companions, (names mentioned), at the beginning of Zhu Di’s reign received the Imperial Commission as envoys to the barbarians. Up until now seven voyages have taken place and, each time, we have commanded several tens of thousands of government soldiers and more than a hundred ocean-going vessels. We have ? reached countries of the Western Regions, more than three thousand countries in all.”

Menzies argues that although 1421 marked Zheng He’s second last international voyage, it was extremely important because his ships followed the emperor’s edict to spread out to the four corners of the globe in exploration of further trade and tributes from new regions. These journeys were entrusted to his subordinate commanders, Hong Bao, Zhou Man, Zhou Wen and Yang Qing.

He, however, fails to link the voyages of these four commanders to America and to global voyaging in any Chinese travel or imperial records, so that these journeys appear highly speculative. Hence the charge that the book reads like a work of historical detection, more like a historical novel, a product of his imagination.

Menzies relies heavily on several 15th century European charts and maps to trace the Chinese journeys, in the belief that these must have been derived from earlier Chinese expeditions. Repeatedly he asserts that Vasco da Gama, Magellan, Columbus and the European explorers of the New World were “carrying copies of Chinese maps”.

These maps and charts, he claims, must have come from Chinese charts that somehow had found their way to Venice as early as in 1428 and then to Portugal.

This is the most controversial part of Menzies’ new theory. Unfortunately, he provides no proof to link these European and Chinese charts and maps with one another. None of the European charts and maps ever mentions Chinese influence, either.

What he does establish is that a 1428 Portuguese chart, which shows Africa, Australia, South America and various islands, is drawn in remarkably accurate detail. It even shows the Cape of Good Hope, which the Portuguese did not sail around until the end of the 15th century.

Yet, how was it possible for such a chart to have been drawn? Menzies’ only answer is that it must have been copied from the Chinese.

He speculates that the 1428 chart was based on documents or information that had been spirited out of India by the Venetian merchant and explorer Nicolo da Conti, who supposedly sailed with Zheng He on part of one voyage. On page 390, he even claims that Da Conti was aboard the junks that reached Australia from India. But Da Conti’s accounts do not mention Zheng He specifically at all, or even Australia.

Menzies also claims that a 1495 map of another Venetian, cartographer Fra Mauro, depicting what looked like Chinese junks could only have been derived from da Conti. His imagination and reasoning then runs as follows: “Chinese knowledge and Chinese maps passed from da Conti to Fra Mauro, and from him to Dom Pedro of Portugal and Prince Henry the Navigator?”

Unable to read Chinese, he thus cites very few Chinese primary sources, except those in translation. A dearth of Chinese documents, he admits, drove him to scour the old European maps and charts for support for his conclusions. Although he uses some Chinese star maps and charts, these do not reveal any information of America or Australia but mainly identify Sri Lanka, Malacca and Sumatra.

Through research in Venice, Spain and Portugual, Menzies had found some of these early maps and also determined how the Chinese explorers were able to measure latitude and estimate longitude in the Southern Hemisphere, using Canopus as the guide star in place of Polaris, the North Star. He argues that this meant that the Chinese were extremely advanced in astro-navigation and ahead of the Europeans.

He also describes wrecked Chinese ships that he said had been detected in the Caribbean and in Australia and New Zealand, which he deemed as further evidence of global voyaging by the Chinese fleet.

The similarities of the three wrecks at Perth and Wollongong, near Sydney, the age of the wooden pin and the size of the huge rudder in Byron Bay in northern New South Wales (the rudders of the Chinese ships were 36 feet high) all allegedly point to a Chinese origin.

Aboriginal legends and cave carvings depicting foreigners arriving by ships in white garments, the groups of mysterious stone buildings and the votive offerings, according to Menzies, produce powerful if not yet conclusive evidence that a large Chinese fleet visited southeast Australia in the 15th century.

Questionable guesswork clearly forms part of his stock-in-trade when he claims that the inscription on a stone column in the Cape Verde Islands (off Africa’s western coast) is in Malayalam, a language of South India, and that another in Ruapuke in North Island, New Zealand, is in Tamil. And both these items prove that the Chinese were there.
Yet why would a Chinese fleet order a message to be inscribed in a language other than Chinese? Menzies argues that Indian merchants could have travelled on the Chinese ships. But they could easily have done it on their own, too? Not possible, he says, as there was no other sea power to rival the Chinese.

The author also claims that the Chinese planted colonies around the Pacific rim, in the Caribbean, Massachusetts and California. But as most of his critics have pointed out, he fails to provide any DNA evidence to link, for instance, the American Indians in Sacramento Bay, California, with the Chinese, or the fair Chinese-looking Indian tribe in Peru with the Chinese.

While much of these foregoing criticisms negate his theory, it would be unfair to dismiss Menzies’ ideas as those of an eccentric because much labour and research have really been put into this subject of Chinese global voyaging.
His knowledge of astro-navigation and the world’s oceans is impressive; so is his use of his home computer and a commercial software package called Starry Night to reconstruct the Chinese celestial navigation system. He presents a strong argument that the Chinese navigators could really have been ahead of the European explorers in their knowledge and use of the stars to steer their ocean-going vessels.

What Menzies has presented are some interesting gems such as that Columbus and Magellan were really not the first European explorers to have gone to the Caribbean or South America. His close examination of the 1428 and 1495 Portuguese maps and charts shows that earlier Portuguese seamen (whose names are unknown) had been there before them. He also establishes convincingly that Puerto Rico had already been a Portuguese colony by 1440, some 52 years before Columbus set sail for the New World.

His study of Chinese global voyaging has provided us with new insights on the ancient shipwrecks found off the coasts of North and South America and off Australia and New Zealand. They present challenges to archaeologists and historians to answer the questions that he has raised.

One of the most intriguing questions which remains unanswered in 1421: The Year China Discovered America is why the Chinese fleet never travelled up the west African coast to Europe so that the Chinese could have discovered Europe?
Let us, however, not forget that the Europeans, including Marco Polo in 1279, had visited China, and this desire to trade with it was one of the reasons that inspired their voyages of exploration.

Menzies’ probable argument on the failure of the Chinese to discover Europe is that the circulatory currents off the west African coast were so powerful that they normally pushed every ship, especially the Chinese ships, away towards the Caribbean and to South America instead of up to Europe.

Not aware of this, the Chinese allowed their ships to be blown in this direction. But once they had learnt of the circulatory current, they came back down to the Cape of Good Hope and to India, or crossed the Pacific Ocean to Australia and back to China.

Only in his closing chapter does Menzies consider the glaring omission of Europe in his theory. He lapses again into his predictable wishful thinking (p.406): “It seems certain that a further voyage by Zheng He’s fleets would have included the one section of the globe they had not yet reached and charted – Europe.”

Cheah Boon Kheng is a retired Professor of History at Universiti Sains Malaysia, Penang.

From: Alpheta
11/16/2003 2:21 pm 
To: ALL (2 of 28) 
 
108.2 in reply to 108.1 

Those Chinese navigators sure got around! Now here's an amateur archaeologist claiming they may have discovered New Zealand some 2000 years ago:

http://www.ashburtonguardian.co.nz/index.asp?articleid=2701

The Ashburton Guardian

Did the Chinese discover New Zealand first?

A British amateur archaeologist believes he has found the remains of a 15th-century Chinese ship buried in cliffs at Wakanui Beach.

The claim is part of controversial research by Cedric Bell, a retired engineer who has spent the past year gathering what he believes is proof of an ancient Chinese civilisation in New Zealand, which pre-dated Maori by several centuries.
Mr Bell told the Ashburton Guardian there was evidence that a huge tsunami had hit the coast of New Zealand about 1422. The tsunami had been caused by a meteorite, which was believed to have landed in the sea south of Stewart Island.

What he believes to be the remains of an upturned Chinese junk is clearly outlined in cliffs at Wakanui Beach, about 300 metres south of the car park.

Mr Bell said there was growing evidence the Chinese had settled in New Zealand up to 2000 years ago.
They had built several sophisticated settlements in the South Island, including a fortified city at Rakaia Huts, which he believed was a base for mineral prospecting in the Southern Alps.

The Chinese had built canals all along the Canterbury coast, linking the major rivers. The remains of these canals could be seen just north of the Rakaia River mouth and in many other places.

He also believed the Chinese had built a series of weirs on several South Island rivers, including the Ashburton, Rakaia and Selwyn rivers, to make them navigable by junks, which they used to sail upstream to prospect for gold and other minerals.

Mr Bell said he had first visited Wakanui Beach in February this year “to do some fossicking” and had taken material from the outline of what he believed was the remains of a junk. The material had proved to be burned timber. It had been carbon-dated by scientists at Waikato University to the period around 1422.

He returned to the beach yesterday to do more investigation into the ship’s remains.
“I believe the junk was on fire, due to the meteorite, and was swept ashore by the tsunami,” he said.
The tsunami had actually created the cliffs at Wakanui and further along the Mid Canterbury coast, he added.

“The coast was probably just low sandhills before that,” he said.

Mr Bell said his interest in Chinese settlement in New Zealand had been sparked by Gavin Menzies’ controversial book, “1421 – the Year China Discovered the World”.

The book’s hypothesis is that during the Ming Dynasty, in 1421, four Chinese fleets containing a total of about 1000 ships set sail to colonise the world.

The Chinese had already settled as far afield as Peru, from where they brought sweet potato and many other plants to
New Zealand well before the arrival of the Maori.

Among the more startling claims in the book is that Maori are descended partially from the Chinese.
Mr Bell said he had found about 30 Chinese settlements around New Zealand and believed there were probably as many as 300. At Moeraki in North Otago he had found what he believed were Chinese cannon balls, made of stone, up to 300mm in diameter. The cannon balls were also apparently from junks wrecked in the tsunami, he said.
I'm wondering if Mr. Bell's discoveries will be given short shrift since he is an "amateur".

From: Alpheta  
7/11/2004 2:22 pm 
To: ALL (3 of 28) 
 
108.3 in reply to 108.2 

More on the Chinese discovering America. By the way, when Wallace visited in May we spent several happy hours at the Half Price Books store and among my purchases was Gavin Menzies' book "1421: The Year China Discovered America". I haven't had a chance to start reading it - too many other projects going on at present, but I will get to it and will report on it here.

http://news3.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-07/08/content_1583224.htm

Oceanic odyssey remains a treasure
www.chinaview.cn 2004-07-08 11:01:32

BEIJING, July 8 (Xinhuanet) -- Question for the ages: Who circumnavigated the globe 87 years before Italian explorer Cristopher Columbus (1451-1506) and 114 years before Portuguese explorer Ferdinand Magellan (1480-1521)?
Answer: Zheng He (1371-1433) of the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644).

The ancient Chinese mariner travelled to the West seven times from 1405 to 1433, sailing more than 50,000 kilometres and visiting 37 countries and regions.

Historical studies suggest his expeditions were unsurpassable among his contemporaries in terms of the size of the fleets, the navigation technology, the duration and organization.

That tells why Zheng He is still remembered today as one of the world's greatest navigators and a source of pride for the whole Chinese nation.

To prepare to mark the 600th anniversary of Zheng's first voyage next year, the country has set up a directorate headed by Minister of Communications Zhang Chunxian to stage a massive celebration.

On July 11, 1405, Zheng set sail on his first oceanic odyssey with a fleet of 208 ships and 27,800 sailors.
Xu Zuyuan, vice-minister of communications, told a news conference organized by the State Council Information Office that colourful commemorative activities have been planned for the anniversary.

They include a commemoration conference to be held in Beijing next July, an exhibition and a TV feature programme on Zheng's extraordinary navigational feats.

Meanwhile, Shanghai will hold an international maritime expo between July 8 and July 15, 2005 and a series of national contests, seminars and international symposiums will be organized around the country between now and 2005.
Xu said the festivities are will "carry forward the fine Chinese tradition of loving peace and fostering good-neighbourly relations to promote world peace and social development.

"During his seven voyages to the West, Zheng He treated other countries with friendship and respect instead of occupying a single piece of land, establishing a fortress or seizing any treasure," Xu noted.

The official extended invitations to all interested parties from across the globe to participate in the commemoration and to share their research on the royal eunuch daring expeditions.

During his 28-year naval career, Zheng sailed from China to places in the South Pacific, Indian Ocean, Persian Gulf and Africa, according to historical documents.

The flagship of his fleet, named the "Treasure Ship," was a four-storey, nine-masted vessel measuring 440 feet, nearly 1.5 times the length of a football fields and five times that of Columbus's ship.
Zheng He's journeys also stimulated a number of important maritime inventions, including central rudders, watertight compartments and various new types of sails.

In fact, Zheng He is so renowned in the world's marine navigation history that some researchers have argued it was Zheng rather than Columbus who discovered America first.

Gavin Menzies, a retired British Royal Naval Submarine Commanding Officer, put forward the theory in his book, "1421: The Year China Discovered the World."

In the book published in 2002, Menzies cited overwhelming evidence to support his concept that Chinese ships under the command of Zheng reached America 70 years before Columbus, who sailed across the Atlantic to reach America in 1492.
Asked to comment on the engrossing concept, vice-minister Xu said, Menzies' idea "is still under academic research and an uniformed conclusion has yet to be reached on it."

Xu, however, expressed his sincere admiration and appreciation about Menzies' extensive research on Zheng navigational pursuits.

From:  Isis (georgia18)   
7/13/2004 1:02 am 
To: Alpheta (4 of 28) 
 
108.4 in reply to 108.1 

Alpheta,
I know of the Imperial Palace Eunuch from earier studies. The 7 Voyages of Zheng He, do you think their is a connection with Sinbad?  Zheng He was Muslim?

 
Here are some links with more information about Zheng He's voyages.
http://apps.mc.maricopa.edu/blogs/asb222/reffland/archives/000438.html

Here is a message board about Zheng He Voyages with great information about the Grand Eunuch.
http://www.eunuch.org/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-4880.html

 I have also located other proof of trade with China which pre-dates Columbus.  I will see if I can get my scanner to work right and Get it put on this string.

 
From: Alpheta  
7/13/2004 10:02 pm 
To: Isis (georgia18) (5 of 28) 
 
108.5 in reply to 108.4 

Hi Sis,
Yes, as I understand it, Sheng He (?) was a Muslim. I am not sure how that worked as I think I read somewhere, sometime - but I don't remember when or where - that eunuchs could not be Muslims because they weren't "men" and therefore they were not acceptable to God. This may be something that someone may want to research!
Anyway, I haven't started Menzies' book yet - I'm still working on the liubo article and also I looked over (but did not "read" it, per se), a book that Wallace gifted to me during his last visit at the Half Price Books store on Sacred Places. There is a TON of good material in there and personally, I was extremely gratified to learn that my instincts about the information that I had gleaned from various websites and also personal reading was accurate in the posts I did regarding Sacred Spaces/Sacred Places. It's at what used to be Chess, Goddess and Everything but damned if I can recall what it's called now, or find the link to the group. Drat! Maybe you can provide the correct link.
 
 
From: Isis (georgia18)   
7/15/2004 12:42 am 
To: Alpheta (6 of 28) 
 
108.6 in reply to 108.5 

Sis,
If my memory serves me well the Muslems used Eunuchs as Harem guards, and as soldiers in the military. In China they were attendants in the Forbidden City.

You requested help finding posts about "Sacred Spaces/Sacred Places", so I looked through the Goddess Weave Site I found this string, I hope it leads you to your work of past.

"http://forums.delphiforums.com/chesstuff/messages?msg=12.253

From: Alpheta  
7/19/2004 7:57 pm 
To: Isis (georgia18) (7 of 28) 
 
108.7 in reply to 108.6 

Hi Sis,
Thanks for the link/tip about those posts I did on sacred places/sacred spaces. I will make a note of it. Good news, I ordered DSL today through my telephone company; I should get the installation kit in 7 days.

Sis, do you know if the eunuchs who served as harem guards were Muslims? I don't suppose this kind of information is readily available, but then again, who knows?

From: Isis (georgia18)   
8/7/2004 9:32 pm 
To: Alpheta (8 of 28) 
 
108.8 in reply to 108.7 

Harem guards;

Athena Nike was/is the protector of Harems.

Thailand's King has female harem guards.

In some Brahman Indian Harems the guards are eunuchs and sometimes dwarves. 

I have more information about Harems, in my old computer. I need to transfer the links to this new computer, so I will have easy access to the info....Wish me luck transfering my favorites list to this computer.

From: Alpheta  
8/10/2004 8:43 pm 
To: Isis (georgia18) (9 of 28) 
 
108.9 in reply to 108.8 

Hi Sis,
I don't know about harem guards, I wanted to know more about Muslim eunuchs. Good luck transferring information from your old computer to your new computer. I read a review in the Journal/Sentinel a few months back about various programs that allegedly assist one in transferring programs and other information from one computer to another - with varying levels of success, none very satisfactory apparently! I'm not a techy, so I can't be of any help to you, unfortunately.

I'm making progress on the 1491: The Year China Discovered America book by Gavin Menzies. It is fascinating! Unfortunately, it appears that at least for the time being, it will be several years before any serious DNA testing is done, for example, where Menzies says Chinese sailors and colonists landed and stayed and intermingled with the native populations; likewise an examination of various artefacts. Sigh. Sometimes the archaeologists are even worse than those IGK people.
 
From: Isis (georgia18)   
8/12/2004 6:09 am 
To: Alpheta (10 of 28) 
 
108.10 in reply to 108.9 

I will check my notes for the information about Muslem Eunuchs, and post it this weekend.

From:  Alpheta  
8/26/2004 8:54 pm 
To:  Isis (georgia18) (11 of 28) 
 
108.11 in reply to 108.10 

Hi Sis,
I did some more research, and I cannot locate the article I found that discussed what I had mentioned before, about a eunuch not being able to become a Muslim. I could not find confirmation of this elsewhere, either, although I did not want to spend too much time on this. I conclude that what I read earlier was probably either a mis-statement or else I read it wrongly! What I did find was plenty of websites that talked about the historicity of sodomy - particularly of adult males using young boys and eunuchs, that is semi-glorified in the "Muslim" world - but, in fact, this practice seems to be steeped in the ancient middle east tradition of patriarchy and predates Yahweh and Allah, and was present even during the reign of the goddesses in both the Fertile Crescent and nomadic desert civilizations. It is all about the exercise of "power". How sad.

From: Isis (georgia18)   
8/26/2004 10:30 pm 
To: Alpheta (12 of 28) 
 
108.12 in reply to 108.11 

Hello Sis,
The trade in Eunuchs was run by Radinites, a Jewish Sect., which traded with the Muslims. I read about, and took notes, about this sect a couple of years ago, BUT when I went to the search engines tooday to get you a link about this group, they all came up BLANK!  It is as if this religious group fell off the face of the earth.... Whats going on??? 

From: Gallsworth1  
8/26/2004 11:41 pm 
To: Isis (georgia18) (13 of 28) 
 
108.13 in reply to 108.11 

You can find it at google under Radanites. They were slave traders too. In 973, they were selling white female slaves in Mainz, Germany. Many white slaves were also sold in Muslim Spain and to Muslims all over the Middle East. They were mostly taken in Poland and Russia. The word "slave" comes from the word for Slav. Many blond slaves in Spain rose to the top of society and held high positions in the government. Because there were so many blonde and red-haired women in the harems, many of the leaders were blond and red-haired.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/nordichistory4

Today, women are lured from Russia and Ukraine with phony promises of jobs to Israel, where they are forced into prostitution and don't keep any of the money. This is the work of the Russian Mafia, which is Jewish. This was exposed on the program 60 Minutes.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/imperialism1
 
From: Isis (georgia18)   
8/27/2004 6:55 am 
To: Gallsworth1 (14 of 28) 
 
108.14 in reply to 108.13 

I remember seeing the same program.
Slavery is still going on Big Time!

After WWI ended many children were abducted in Europe and shipped to the US where they were sold. Train loads of these abducted children pasted through the country and sold. This is a history none of us are suppose to know about.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/conspiracynet/messages?msg=698.1

http://forums.delphiforums.com/conspiracynet/messages?msg=1236.1

http://forums.delphiforums.com/conspiracynet/messages?msg=368.1

http://forums.delphiforums.com/conspiracynet/messages?msg=307.18

From: Gallsworth1  
8/27/2004 8:54 am 
To: Isis (georgia18) (15 of 28) 
 
108.15 in reply to 108.14 

That is interesting. I have read about recent cases of slavery in the United States. Some Israelis in Los Angeles were convicted of owning Indonesian house slaves. A Chinese woman was convicted of holding Chinese immigrants as slaves.
Large numbers of Korean women work as sex slaves in Korean brothels all over America. Many women are forced into slavery and prostitution by Black street pimps. Chinese immigrants in New York and elsewhere are held in temporary slavery by snakeheads to work of their "debts" for people smugglers who brought them here.

I will check out your links. I may post some of it in the Slavery Folder at http://forums.delphiforums.com/imperialism1

From: Isis (georgia18)   
8/28/2004 8:57 pm 
To: Gallsworth1 (16 of 28) 
 
108.16 in reply to 108.15 

Gallsworth,
I heard on television many years ago that over 2,000 children A DAY are abducted in the US, never to be found again.  Have you read or heard about this?  I have come to believe that these children are part of the tribute demanded from our country by a really bad gang.  Hint --Remember the Pueblo Insodent of the 1960's.

A very powerful prostitution slave ring in the US is named "The Jade Blade".  Many of the white slaves are sent to China and sold, using the underground railway.  Another country into the slaving is Mynamar (formily Burma).  You might want to follow the ethnobotanical stoory of Millet.  AND of course the Elephant Mahouts!
I have traveled through the ages, and I hear the cries of the children....

From: Gallsworth1  
8/28/2004 9:58 pm 
To: Isis (georgia18) (17 of 28) 
 
108.17 in reply to 108.16 

There was a wave of hysteria about child abductions.

It was claimed that there were secret Satanic cults which sacrificed children and babies and engaged in ritual Satanic child abuse. Actually, the number of children kidnapped for sexual abuse by strangers is only around a hundred a year. A number of researchers have tried to find evidence of human sacrifice or snuff films in the United States. Hardly any good evidence was ever found. There was a group of Mexican drug smugglers who did some Satanic human sacrifices in Texas, but the major motive was probably just to terrify people so they wouldn't snitch.

An Israeli reporter went around the world trying to find proof of snuff films. All he was able to find were a few films of women being raped and killed in Bosnia during the civil war, a few films of women being raped, tortured and killed by the CIA-backed Contras in Nicaragua and some Reagan-backed right-wing death squads in El Salvador, and one case in California where a gay Jew with AIDS filmed some bikers raping and killing a woman.

I have a forum on human sacrifice.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/muti

There have been several cases in London of African immigrants sacrificing children, usually other African immigrants. These are not hysteria. These are cases where the police find bodies and obtain convictions. There are several human sacrifices a year in India by devotees of the Goddess Kali. In Brazil, there have been a few cases of human sacrifice. One involved the mayor of a small town. They would kidnap children and torture them to death. They believed that this would bring them wealth and good fortune. There were actual bodies found and confessions from people who were there.

There was a case where some Chinese people killed someone in order to divine the winning lottery numbers.
The National Geographic television program once investigated human sacrifice among Aymara Indians in Bolivia and Peru. These are real cases where bodies were found and arrests made by the police. They were following traditional native customs which date back to the era of the Incas.

There have also been authenticated cases where American women are lured to Japan or the Middle East with promises that they will make lots of money dancing or doing legal jobs. Then, their passports are stolen and they become sex slaves. There was also a recent case in Belgium where some powerful people were kidnapping children, raping them, and then killing them. This was real. There were bodies and other evidence proving it.

But, there is no evidence that this happens much in the United States. A child's chance of getting hit by lightning are probably greater.Sexual abuse of children almost always involves relatives or acquaintances, or brief abductions by perverts who let them go after the crime.

I don't believe that anyone has ever been convicted of ritual Satanic child abuse. I correct myself. During the hysteria, dozens of people were convicted, but these convictions were later found to be bogus. However, some of the people are still in prison.

In the McMartin pre-school case, it was claimed that many movie stars were raping the children and taking them on airplane flights to exotic locations. It was claimed that the children were intimidated by seeing children killed and buried under the preschool. When police excavated the site, they found no bodies and no evidence.

It was claimed that there were thousands of child pornography tapes, but not one was ever found.
But the hysteria caused the people to be convicted anyway. The woman who started it was a mental patient with a long history of making false and bizarre accusations. She committed suicide, but the prosecutions went on anyway.

About a dozen innocent people were sentenced to long prison terms, including an innocent grandmother who had devoted her life to helping children. The fact is that females virtually never engage in this type of sexual abuse. A few females do sleep with teenage boys. That's all. If Mary Kay LeTourneau had worshipped me and slept with me when I was 15 I would have loved it and it would have been very beneficial to me. Don't people have any common sense?
What this really was was a WITCH HUNT.

Hundreds of thousands of women and children are being raped and killed right now in the Sudan. This is a fact, and it has been reported in the news media and documented. But no one cares much about it or does anything about it.
It is more fun to fantasize about secret groups of Satan worshippers who are abducting thousands of children, torturing them, making child pornography, and murdering them in secret.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/imperialism1 (there is a folder in this forum on Torture and Slavery)

There are many teenagers who are tricked by pimps into becoming sex slaves. Here the phenomenon is very real and has been documented. There are hundreds of thousands of teenage prostitutes. Many are graduates of the foster care or social work child care system who become homeless drug-addicted prostitutes. Others are tricked by pimps. But all go voluntarily. First they accept a pimp as their boyfriend. Only then are they threatened with death and beaten up. No pimp would dare to try picking up some girl off the street he didn't know. Many girls watch rap videos or MTV and feel that the pimp lifestyle is sexy, so they fall for it.

The singer Ice Tea is a former pimp and slavemaster. He named himself after Iceberg Slim, who wrote a book called PIMP. I found it in the Black Studies library. He laughs at the stupidity of women who will sacrifice their lives to give money to a pimp who uses them and hates them. If you ever read this book, it will make your skin crawl. There might even be something about it on the Internet. I'm going to do a google search right now.

From: Alpheta  
9/1/2004 9:10 pm 
To: Gallsworth1 (18 of 28) 
 
108.18 in reply to 108.17 

Thank you for your posts. There is interesting material in them, but they are off-topic. I would appreciate it if you would limit your posts to relevant information. Again, many thanks!
 
 
From: Isis (georgia18)   
9/4/2004 1:20 am 
To:  Gallsworth1 (19 of 28) 
 
108.19 in reply to 108.17 

Sacrifice was used to purify areas for sacred areas, this happened in China with ancient Daoists. 

There are tombs found with sacrifices of people and animals, the tomb of the First Emperior, the Kurgans, and many more. 

From: Gallsworth1  
9/4/2004 7:06 am 
To:  Isis (georgia18) (20 of 28) 
 
108.20 in reply to 108.19 

Sacrifices in China long predated the Taoists.

What evidence do you have for your statement that all sacrifices were used to "purify" "sacred areas?" Have you ever read what any anthropolgists have written on the subject? In the Sacrifice Forum, http://forums.delphiforums.com/muti there are links to good books on the subject. Only a small minority of sacrifices were for the purpose of purifying sacred spaces.

You are making one false statement after another on subjects you don't know much about. You don't cite any books or sources. I'm getting tired of reading your posts. Maybe it would be better if you changed your methods.

As me questions. State "This is my opinion..." or "I am under the impression that...." or "I think..." or even better, cite some source for your statements.

I really don't want to argue with you. I have an entire forum on the Indo-Europeans and their kurgans.

http://forums.delphiforums.com/indoeuropean

Among the Indo-europeans, ancient Hindus, Sumerians, the first dynasty of Egypt, ancient China, and the earliest Japanese, the custom was that when the king or chief died, his wives, concubines and servants were all killed and buried with him in a mound. This custom also existed among some Native Americans. What do you think of customs like this?

Do you think it is fair to the women?

Do you think it is "spiritual"? Would you let yourself be killed in this manner? Do you have any idea why so many people behaved like this? Would you like to read about my studies and theories on this topic?

From: Isis (georgia18)   
9/5/2004 12:44 am 
To: Gallsworth1 unread (21 of 28) 
 
108.21 in reply to 108.20 

For a strange reason I have not been able to post the links I collected for Sacrifice Research, so I am putting them in an attachment for all to use. 

Alpheta, I found some of the sacrifice posts we did on the Weave.

Sacrifice...
When studying chess you will come across the Queen Sacrifice...
And then there is the work we did on the King Sacrifice at Goddess Weave the Game.

Gallsworth there is also the Biblical Abraham, sacrificing his son, and Jesus with Self Sacrifice, who is associated with Odin....

The Viking wives supposedly joined their dead husbands on funneral pyres.. as did many Indian wives...
Chess Archaeology

Queen sacrifice Viking Sacrifice possibly

Viking Sacrifice Queen sacrifce possibly

http--www.chessarch.com-excavations-excavations.shtml

http://forums.delphiforums.com/chesstuff/messages?msg=386.1

The Weave 19 - Posts 901-950
... epicentre at operational level. Diana also died in Paris on an ancient site of ritual
sacrifice to the Goddess Diana, now known as the Pont d'Alma tunnel. ...
www.goddesschess.com/theweave2/theweave19.html - 90k - Cached - Similar pages

The Weave 20 - Posts 951-1000
... This is very reminiscent of the origins of the Hercules/king sacrifice, done originally
twice a year, than annually -- the kingship was tied to his marriage to ...
www.goddesschess.com/theweave2/theweave20.html - 90k - Cached - Similar pages

The Weave 16 - Posts 751-800
... The mock king would temporarily be given the power of the true king and would
briefly rule in his place, until the time of the sacrifice. ...
www.goddesschess.com/theweave2/theweave16.html - 70k - Cached - Similar pages

The Weave 17 - posts 800-851
... But then, who was Diana sacrifice for? Prince Charles? Egad! ... And that would mean
Diana was the sacrifice for her own son! Talk about archetypes! ...
www.goddesschess.com/theweave2/theweave17.html - 91k - Cached - Similar pages
Chesstories Table of Contents
... The Legend of Dilaram Is this story of romance and potential sacrifice true?
Is there any basis in fact for the legend of Dilaram? ...
www.goddesschess.com/chesstories/storiestoc.html - 15k - Sep 3, 2004 - Cached - Similar pages

The Weave 15 - Posts 701 - 750
... Later the cannibalism was abandoned and a system of child sacrifice was devised
so that the king could reign for several years; the number 8 appears in this ...
www.goddesschess.com/theweave2/theweave15.html - 93k - Cached - Similar pages
Here are a few links to help you along with any sacrifice research you may do in the future from my personal files.

Kite of Wicker used by Ship Captains possible Sacrifice
Fate Manipulation
Fate Manipulation
Shang Burial Clam Shells mass human Sacrifice
Shang Burial Henan Provence
Roman Britian Sacrifice
Level 3 - Life in Roman Sussex - Religion - Priests & Rituals
Fortress in Tuva Human Sacrifice
Tombs of nobles copy of Rich Han Tombs
Archaeology of the Hsiung-nu in Russia
Archaeology of the Hsiung-nu in Russia
Aztec Obsidian Blade Sacrifice
Aztec Building Materials
Jupiter Lycaeus Human Sacrifice Olympic
Wolf Warriors the Romans, the Dacians and the Vlachs; Dracula and Hitler
Hun Burials Nepherite Human Sacrifice Mountain Goat on Seal
Recent issues
Emp. Qin Huangdi Mercury Pool Feng Shui Pyramid Terracotta Warriors Xian
The Fabulous 1,000-Foot White Pyramid of Xian
Cultural Heritage Sites - china.org.cn
Chinese Culture Images
Sacrifice
March 2002 - Issakidou
Poison Placenta Sacrifice
CH 7 pp 271 - 290 - FOUNDATIONS OF PSYCHOHISTORY
Poisonwood Treehe Key West Botanical Garden Society The Tamarind Trail
Valarian Hemlock Socraties Cock Sacrifice Aesculapius Word Etymology
Hun Burial Fighting Dragons Human Sacrifice
Hun Burial Russia
Dragon's Blood Resin of a Palm Tree Wicca
Calamus Draco Palm indigenous to Sumatra
British Pharmaceutical Codex 1911 SANGUIS DRACONIS.
MoonRaven's Book of Shadows - Wicca, WitchCraft, Paganism
Feng Shui
Divination Board Shi Compass Tomb Henen
Shamanism and Feng Shui
http://www.levity.com/alchemy/animal.html
 
From: Isis (georgia18)   
9/12/2004 4:50 am 
To: ALL (22 of 28) 
 
108.22 in reply to 108.20 

http://www.nbufront.org/html/FRONTalView/ArticlesPapers/CMcIntyre_SlaveSystem2.html

From: Alpheta  
6/3/2007 11:39 am 
To: ALL (23 of 28) 
 
108.23 in reply to 108.22 

Getting back to the ACTUAL topic of this thread - this is the second article I've read recently about attempts to recreate alleged ancient trips by sea. Well, we know that people got from there to here or from here to there, pick your spots - they got there some how. And since we don't know how to walk on water at the present time, it's a pretty safe bet that people moved on water by boats (I guess I should say "ships").

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Viking-Ship.html

Viking Longship to Sail Across North Sea

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: May 28, 2007
Filed at 12:08 a.m. ET

ROSKILDE, Denmark (AP) -- On the skipper's command, deckhands haul in tarred ropes to lower the flax sail. Oars splash into the water. The crew, grimacing with strain, pull with steady strokes sending the sleek Viking longship gliding through the fjord. A thousands years ago, the curved-prow warship might have spewed out hordes of bloodthirsty Norsemen ready to pillage and burn. This time, the spoils are adventure rather than plunder.

The Sea Stallion of Glendalough is billed as the world's biggest and most ambitious Viking ship reconstruction, modeled after a warship excavated in 1962 from the Roskilde fjord after being buried in the seabed for nearly 950 years.
Volunteers are preparing it for a journey across the legendary Viking waters of the North Sea -- leaving Roskilde in eastern Denmark on July 1 and sailing 1,200 miles to Dublin, which was founded by Vikings in the 9th century.
''It's like a banana boat. It moves like a snake,'' crew member Preben Rather Soerensen, 42, said after a recent test sail in the Roskilde fjord.

The crew will explore the challenges of spending seven weeks in an open vessel with no shelter from crashing waves, whipping wind and drenching rain. Working in four-hour shifts, the history buffs and sailing enthusiasts will have to steer the 100-foot-long ship through treacherous waters with a minimum of sleep, comfort and privacy -- just as the Vikings did.

''They must have been incredibly tough to do what they did,'' said 24-year-old crew member Triona Nicholl, an archaeologist from Dublin. ''We all have waterproof gear. We have radios and life jackets and all the stuff. They must have been hardier people.''

The Vikings turned to the stars and their ancient Norse gods for help as they navigated across the open sea, reaching as far as Iceland and North America. Many perished in the hostile waters of the North Atlantic.

This crew puts their faith in modern technology: a GPS satellite navigation system and radar. They wear baseball caps and wind-breakers rather than helmets and chain mail shirts. Mobile phones are allowed, but no battle axes.
Nevertheless, the crew is likely to feel they have been transported back a millennium when the voyage begins, although it will be accompanied by a modern support vessel with medical and rescue experts.

The Viking boat has the curved hull and single square sail that typified Norse longships, which were designed to sail on both open seas and shallow rivers.

Using replicas of Viking era tools -- chisels, knives, spoon bits and axes -- craftsmen built the 8.25-ton Sea Stallion using 5,250 cubic feet of oak and 7,000 hand-forged iron rivets.

''Within a certain framework, we knew how they built the ship and how the missing parts should be,'' said Erik Andersen, 68, who designed the replica. ''The only guesswork was the color of the ship and the sail.''

The builders settled for a brown-colored hull and a red-and-yellow sail, drawing inspiration from the famed Bayeux tapestry in France, which depicts the 11th century Norman conquest of England. The Normans were descendants of Viking settlers in northwestern France.

The ship proved remarkably stable during trials off Roskilde on May 5. Powered by up to 30 pairs of oars, the Sea Stallion -- Havhingsten in Danish -- sliced through the waves without wobbling. Out in the fjord, the 144-square-yard sail was pulled down like a curtain, catching the salty breeze with a loud thump. Captain Poul Nygaard, a Dane, dispatched instructions, relayed to the crew by the shouts of a midshipman.

It will be no pleasure cruise. ''They will suffer from blisters on their hands and sore bums,'' Nygaard said.
The voyage across the North Sea, passing north of Scotland and down the famously ill-tempered Irish Sea, will test both the crew and their ship.

The goal is to sail nonstop to Dublin, but the plan could change depending on the weather.

The Sea Stallion will sail around the northern tip of Jutland and across the North Sea to the Orkney Islands, north of Scotland. From there, it is to veer south at Cape Wrath on Scotland's northern tip and down the Irish Sea to Dublin.
The crew -- mostly volunteers from Scandinavia, Britain, Ireland, the United States and Canada -- will eat, sleep and work in extremely close quarters. When nature calls, the solution is a portable toilet near the mast or over the side of the ship.

''Privacy is a very big problem. We're 65 people living very close for long time,'' said Erik Nielsen, a 64-year-old volunteer from Toronto. ''You deal with it. It is manageable.''

The 78 men and 22 women will take turns sailing the ship on the seven-week voyage. Many will remain onboard from start to finish, said Rather Soerensen, the project manager.

''They have to know something about square sails. And they have to be very socially competent,'' he said.
The Vikings enter history in the late 8th century, when Christian monks chronicled the first Norse raids on the coasts of northern Europe. While feared for their battle prowess, the Vikings were also skilled craftsmen and traders, establishing commercial networks as far away as Constantinople -- today's Istanbul, Turkey.

In Britain and Ireland, the raids gradually grew into full-fledged invasions led by Danish and Norwegian kings. The first Viking settlements in Ireland have been dated to 840. Many historians believe Icelandic Viking Leif Erikson reached North America 500 years before Columbus.

The longship on which the Sea Stallion was modeled is believed to have been built in 1042 in Glendalough, south of the Irish capital. It was considered one of the most advanced vessels of its time.

Some historians believe it crossed the North Sea to carry the two adult sons of English King Harold Godwinson to Roskilde, where they sought to form an alliance with the Danish king against William the Conqueror.

The ship eventually was among five sunk in the Roskilde fjord around 1060, probably to block access to the port. The five vessels were excavated and are now on display at the Roskilde Viking ship museum.

Christened by Denmark's Queen Margrethe in 2004, the Sea Stallion is expected to reach Dublin on Aug. 14, where it will be exhibited before returning to Denmark in August 2008.

Terje Boe of Norway's Lofotr Viking Museum, who is not involved in the project, said the expedition could shed light on the maneuverability of large Viking vessels.

''It is so special because of the length of the ship. How will they do in high seas, how big waves can it take?'' he said.
On the Net:

Sea Stallion official site: http://www.havhingsten.dk

From: Alpheta  
6/10/2007 10:07 am 
To: ALL (24 of 28) 
 
108.24 in reply to 108.23 

Fascinating story. Obviously the implication is that if this "canoe" could sale from Hawaii to Japan, a similar craft could have made the journey thousands of years ago in the opposite direction!

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-japan-hawaiian-canoe,0,1888398.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines

Canoe Completes 8,500-Mile Pacific Trek
By ERIC TALMADGE
Associated Press Writer
June 9, 2007, 2:01 AM EDT

YOKOHAMA, Japan -- The Hawaiian canoe Hokulea sailed into the Japanese port of Yokohama on Saturday, completing a five-month journey of more than 8,500 miles across the Pacific.

The vessel, flying orange and burgundy sails, was met by the sounding of conch shells, hula dancers and a crowd of several hundred at the port, south of Tokyo.

Bruce Blankenfield, captain of the 10-member crew, said the 62-foot canoe, patterned after the crafts that ancient Hawaiian islanders used, made stops in the Marshall Islands and Truk, Yap and Palau in the Pacific before docking in Okinawa and working its way up the Japanese coastline.

"This is the culmination of our journey," he said. "We are going home after this."

Blankenfield said he expected the canoe, which departed from Hawaii in January, would arrive home in July.
He said one of the reasons for coming to Japan was to commemorate the contributions that Japanese immigrants made to the building of Hawaii, and to say thanks to the country. The craft made stops in Uwajima and Hiroshima before coming north to Yokohama.

"It is like a reconnection," he said. "We also hope to build awareness of culture and our history."

On hand for the arrival was one of Hawaii's most famous sons in Japan, former sumo wrestling grand champion Akebono.

"I am very familiar with the legacy of the Hokulea," he said. "I never dreamed in a million years that in Japan I would be able to see it."

The Hokulea first sailed, to Tahiti, in 1976. This is its 10th major voyage. Blankenfield said he was not sure where it might venture next.

"We are talking about possibly going to New Zealand again," he said. "But for now we are on our way home."

From: Alpheta  
7/8/2007 12:46 pm 
To: ALL (25 of 28) 
 
108.25 in reply to 108.23 

It's set sail!
http://au.news.yahoo.com/070701/2/13vgf.html

Monday July 2, 06:57 AM
Viking ship recreates ancient voyages

A Viking ship set off for Dublin from the Danish port of Roskilde to retrace the voyages taken by the feared Nordic tribes who unleashed bloody raids on Ireland's shores 1,000 years ago. Crafted from the wood of 300 oak trees, the 30-metre long, four-metre wide Sea Stallion is the world's largest reconstructed Viking vessel, its builders say. The original was constructed in Ireland in 1042 but sank 30 years later in Roskilde fjord, about 50 km south of Copenhagen, and lay there until excavation began in 1962.

The new Sea Stallion began a 1,000-nautical-mile journey to Ireland, captained by schoolteacher Carsten Hvid.
The ship will use only oar and sail power in a bid to address unanswered questions about Viking ship-building and travel, its 65-member volunteer crew braving the elements on the open deck, each with about a square metre of space.
"I think the biggest challenge will be the rough weather we might encounter," said Louise Henriksen, a 27-year-old historian who will live on board for the duration of the voyage.

"After all, we are testing the construction. Can it resist the rough weather? And the nights get really cold."

About 7,000 iron nails and rivets hold the ship together and there are two km of rope on board.
With a top speed of 15-20 knots, it will face turbulent waters, biting winds and strong currents as it makes its voyage of up to seven weeks through the North Sea to Dublin. But the weather was anything but rough as the crew took to the oars and rowed the Sea Stallion out of the fjord on a sunny afternoon, to the accompaniment of cheers and Irish folk music.

From: Alpheta  
9/2/2007 1:08 pm 
To: ALL (26 of 28) 
 
108.26 in reply to 108.25 

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/rtrs/20070814/tod-uk-ireland-vikings-1a5e080_1.html

Viking ship lands in Ireland after nearly 1,000 yrs

By Jonathan Saul Reuters - Tuesday, August 14 06:16 pmDUBLIN (Reuters) - A reconstructed Viking ship pulled into Dublin on Tuesday nearly 1,000 years after the original sank off Denmark's coast, with its crew retracing the gruelling voyages made by marauding Nordic raiders to Ireland.

The Sea Stallion's weather-beaten, 65-member team set sail from Roskilde in Denmark on July 1 using oar and sail power, journeying over 1,000 nautical miles and aiming to address unanswered questions about Viking ship-building and travel.

Church bells rang out and a flotilla of sailing boats greeted the ship's entry into Dublin's port on Tuesday.

"You have come here on a voyage of discovery," said Dublin's Lord Mayor Paddy Bourke as the vessel and its volunteer crew of men and women docked.

Crafted from the wood of 300 oak trees, the 30-metre (100-foot) long, 4-metre wide Sea Stallion is the world's largest reconstructed Viking vessel, its builders say. The original ship was built in Dublin in 1042 but sank 30 years later in Roskilde fjord, around 30 miles (50 km) south of Copenhagen, and lay there until excavation began in 1962. The Sea Stallion was completed in 2004 after work started in 2000.

The Sea Stallion's voyage aimed to mirror the conditions faced by the feared Nordic warriors who unleashed bloody raids on Ireland and England 1,000 years ago. The ship's Danish captain, Carsten Hvid, said the toughest moment was coming into the Irish Sea, when high winds and 5-metre waves battered the boat.

"We put on our survival suits and prepared the life rafts," Hvid told reporters after arriving in Dublin. But he added that no one was washed overboard.

The vessel was towed for a small part of the trip. Most of the voyage was spent braving the elements on an open deck, with just a square metre of living space for each crew member. Some of the assembled team spent stints on a support ship due to hypothermia or minor injuries.

"You were so tired, but you still had to work together. It has been a great experience," said Hvid.

In the old Viking sagas, it was not uncommon for captains to spend weeks, months, or even an entire winter waiting for the weather to shift in their favour. "There was cold, lashing rain on some days from the morning until the following morning," the ship's project manager Prieben Rather Sorensen told Reuters. "We did not have the time that the Vikings had as we had to be here today," he added. "That was one of the challenges."

Researchers will analyse film and computer data gathered during the voyage, and the vessel will go on display this month at Dublin's National Museum until next year, when a crew captained by Hvid will make the return voyage home.
Sorensen said he was already counting down the days to setting sail again. "It is like a narcotic -- you can't live without it," he said.

From: Alpheta  
9/2/2007 3:17 pm 
To: ALL (27 of 28) 
 
108.27 in reply to 108.26 

http://www.reuters.com/article/lifestyleMolt/idUSL1887847220070718

Sailors may have cruised the Med 14,000 years ago

Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:16PM EDT
By Michele Kambas

NICOSIA (Reuters Life!) - Archaeologists in Cyprus have discovered what they believe could be the oldest evidence yet that organized groups of ancient mariners were plying the east Mediterranean, possibly as far back as 14,000 years ago.
The find, archaeologists told Reuters on Wednesday, could also suggest the island of Cyprus, tucked in the northeast corner of the Mediterranean and about 30 miles away from the closest land mass, may have been gradually populated about that time, and up to 2,000 years earlier than previously thought.

"This is a major breakthrough in terms of the study of early Cyprus archaeology and the origins of seafaring in the Mediterranean," Pavlos Flourentzos, director of Cyprus's Department of Antiquities, told Reuters. The discovery at a coastal site on the island's northwest has revealed chipped tools submerged in the sea and made with local stone which could be the earliest trace yet of human activity in Cyprus. U.S. and Cypriot archaeologists conducting the research have known since 2004 that Cyprus was used by small groups of voyagers on hunting expeditions for pygmy elephants.
But the newly discovered expanse of the Aspros dig in the Akamas peninsula, which stretches into the sea, suggests the site held larger numbers of people, possibly for months.

"It shows that activity is much more organized than some isolated visit," said Tom Davis, director of the Cyprus American Archaeological Research Institute (CAARI) in Nicosia.

Flourentzos and Davis said the new find told archaeologists nomads knew the island well enough to find tool material, suggesting they were repeat visitors. Archaeologists say the first human settlements in Cyprus date from 10,000 BC and are located inland. Logically, the coastal settlements should be older, and in Aspros dig case where a good deal of it is now in the sea, possibly up to 2,000 years older.

"We are trying to verify through carbon dating on bones in the area that this find is more ancient, possibly another 2,000 years," said Flourentzos, who co-directed the research project with Albert J Ammerman, an archaeologist at Colgate University in Hamilton, New York.

Virtually nothing is known about Mediterranean mariners of the era. There is a widely held belief they never ventured into open seas because of limited navigational abilities. "We are looking at repeated activity here, it is more than a handful of people. For the first time in the east Mediterranean we are talking about serious sea-voyaging," said Davis.
"This was not a case of one guy, or a family blown off course. This is a number of persons coming to Cyprus, these were conscious, repeated visits," Davis said.

***********************************************************************
"Virtually nothing is known about Mediterranean mariners of the era. There is a widely held belief they never ventured into open seas because of limited navigational abilities." Meanwhile, we have people in Southeast Asia settling in Australia some 60,000 years ago. Hmmm, do you see a disconnect in knowledge here??? It seems more likely to me than not that the Mediterranean mariners were out and about at the same time as their Southeast Asian counterparts.
Wouldn't you think it's obvious that the area they're talking about was settled before the end of the last Ice Age, the ending of which raised sea levels and innudated the land, it finally disappearing below the sea. It seems logical that those "inland settlements" the article talks about were most likely settled in response to gradually rising sea levels eroding the Cyprian coast line over a thousand years or so - however long it took for the sea levels to rise enough to wipe out the settlements along the former coast line. What I don't understand is why this is so hard for the "experts" to grasp. Doesn't it seem obvious - particularly in light of discoveries of similar nature all around the world???

From: Alpheta  
10/21/2007 1:49 pm 
To: ALL (28 of 28) 
 
108.28 in reply to 108.27 

http://www.nature.com/news/2007/070924/full/news070924-9.html

Published online 27 September 2007

Stone tool reveals lengthy Polynesian voyage

Adzes form the first hard evidence of two-way travel between Hawaii and Tahiti.
Brendan Borrell The discovery of an adze fashioned from Hawaiian basalt on a Tuamotu atoll in French Polynesia provides the first material evidence that ancient voyagers made an 8,000-kilometre round trip from the South Pacific to Hawaii and back again.

More than 2,000 years ago, seafarers from Samoa and Tonga ventured eastward to settle on more remote archipelagos in the Pacific Ocean, including the Cook Islands, Tahiti, and the Marquesas Islands, colonizing most of these places by 900 AD. (unfortunately, this isn't the full story, but I refuse to pay for it).